Question: What makes an SUV an SUV?

"cazzyodo" (cazzyodo) 09/09/2013 at 10:05 • Filed to: Ask Oppo, SUVs

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I've been pondering (see left) this question, off and on, for about a month. My buddy got a Q5 and is planning all sorts of outdoorsy stuff (we've gone camping and beginner rock climbing) but...it's a crossover. You can't really go to extreme places which, in my mind, are reserved for SUVs. The article on FP about the Jaguar concept had !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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Seriously. I see SUV and crossover used interchangeably now. I put a lot of thought into the hypothetical situation of me searching for a vehicle to do outdoorsy type stuff and I not once thought of a crossover...at least I don't think I did.

Is the line blurred? Is it there? Is there a clear definition anymore or do we all just have our own standards to apply to the industry as manufacturers flood us with car frames with greater ground clearance while the SUVs of yesteryear are relegated to New Hampshire back roads?

Joe_Limon > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:07

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Iwas wondering something along these lines this morning as well. Take a look at the dodge Journey. What is it? Van? Suv? Cuv? Minivan?

Tom McParland > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:07

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I am currently shopping for a client that wants an Evoque. Which I would consider a crossover, but as TG has shown us that thing is rather capable of holding its own with some serious off-road hardware.

Jagvar > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:09

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I just don't know anymore.

PelicanHazard > Joe_Limon 09/09/2013 at 10:09

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Some used car listings I've seen even call it a wagon.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:09

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Body-on-frame and truck based= SUV

Unibody and based on a car platform= Crossover

Joe_Limon > PelicanHazard 09/09/2013 at 10:11

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There is one a couple blocks away from me that has a bumper sign that says "silly boys, trucks are for girls"

Mikeado > Tom McParland 09/09/2013 at 10:13

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It's got serious off-road hardware because it's a Land Rover. It can't not be so-equipped. That's why the Jaguar C-X17 will probably make production, so it can be a more road-based crossover than Land Rover would ever get away with.

Mikeado > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:19

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Well, the term "crossover" means something that blurs the lines between two genres, so I'd say unless it's an out-and-out 4x4 then it can be considered a crossover. The BMW X6 (blegh...) is definitely a crossover because it tries to be a coupé and an SUV at the same time (thus making it not quite good enough at being either, but that's beside the point...), but an X5 is an SUV in the traditional sense, an off-road car with luxury appointments. The smaller X3 and X1 are based on normal "on-road" car chassis, so they're crossovers.

The Jag will be a crossover and not an SUV, because it's chasing after the X6s and Cayennes of the world and is based on the same modular architecture as the upcoming "XS" small saloon.

But these days car companies are so loose with their terminology that automotive semantics like this are a total pain in the arse. Why is an estate car with some added styling suddenly a shooting brake? Why is the saloon version thereof now a "four-door coupé?" It's all getting a bit stupid...

Much Cars > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:19

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Nibby > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 10:21

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THIS.

Eric Siedlecki > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:22

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I kind of mentioned (half) of this question a month or two back when I noticed Nissan calling the Murano CrossCabriolet the world's first AWD convertible crossover. This prompted me to find out whet exactly a crossover is. The only definition I could find was from Wikipedia stating that crossovers usually have some ground clearance, some off-road abilities, and unibody construction. Needless to say, I found other AWD convertible crossovers that came way ahead of the Murano CrossCab.

Check out my article here .

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[Disclaimer: I actually like the CrossCab. I just don't like false claims.]

willkinton247 > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:23

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Off Road Crossover SUV Wagon exhibit A:

So many blurred lines.

deekster_caddy > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 10:25

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lockable transfer case? Low range? Requirements for off-road vehicle IMO. My old Yukon XL had Auto, 2WD, 4High and 4Low. It was push-button, but at least I could lock it into low range. Very useful for driving on soft beach roads. I think Auto saved the life of the guy I sold it to when he drifted off the road while towing a 27' camper trailer.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > deekster_caddy 09/09/2013 at 10:28

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Only added bonuses to an SUV

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > willkinton247 09/09/2013 at 10:29

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AMC Eagle

deekster_caddy > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 10:31

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I guess it was a 'real truck' then, not an SUV. I always thought of it as a truck, because there was nothing 'Sport' about it.

cazzyodo > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 10:34

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Exactly my thoughts. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:37

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You weren't then. That's all there is to it, just don't ask the EPA or NHTSA.

cazzyodo > Tom McParland 09/09/2013 at 10:38

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The Evoque is actually what caused me to think a bit more about it. My buddy getting the Q5 was all well and good for him but I looked at that and thought, "what about the Evoque. That held it's own. Would they operate in a similar manner or is it only because Land Rover makes the Evoque that it's basically forced into it?"

Brewman15 > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 10:49

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I think you answered your own question. The dividing line between SUV and crossover is off-road capability.

There are many SUVs that have always been SUVs like the Grand Cherokee, Cayenne (as hard as it is for me to say that), FJ, Wrangler, and Range Rover.

There are many crossovers that used to be SUVs like the Explorer, Pathfinder, Merc ML, Durango, and I'd even lump the Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban family into that.

There are many, many crossovers that have always been crossovers like the CR-V, Rav4, Patriot/Compass, XC60/XC90, X1/X3/X5, Q5/Q7, CX-5/CX-7/CX-9, Acadia, Traverse, etc...

I ususally just imagine how the vehicle would do off-road, but there should be a designated off-road course used to determine the crossovers from the SUVs. It'd make the blurry line more clear.

Also, aftermarket off-roading accessories are a good indication of what it is. I don't see too many CR-Vs or Rav4s with lift kits and winches!

webmonkees > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 11:06

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Ugly to everyone but the owners.

cazzyodo > Brewman15 09/09/2013 at 11:21

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The thing that caused my confusion was primarily the Evoque...a crossover by many definitions but it has decent off road capabilities as we saw on TG. Subaru Forester, similar thing.

Off road capability is not a defining line.

HammerheadFistpunch > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 11:54

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The line is certainly blured, but if you disect, the term SUV means "Sports Utility Vehicle".

Sports (not sport) - meaning outdoor pursuits, which means high clearance, 4 wheel drive and cargo space. This category is satisfied in most suv/crossovers even if its not used as such. What is not meant in "sports" is motorsports, or sportscar.

Utility - As in, this should be a moderate truck replacement vehicle. It should be able to tow a load, carry cargo in significant quantities and be rugged and durable enough to handle country terrain while doing so and not significantly shorting its life doing it. Most crossovers fail this test and its where a body on frame really have merit.

Vehicle - duh.

So to summarize. Sports Utility Vehicles are designed with light duty utility in mind where crossovers and CUV's are not, but can carry people and cargo equally well or better and are generally inferior in the sports category. There is not line in the sand feature, but more of a design ethic in regards to how it can be used, even if it never is.

HammerheadFistpunch > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 11:56

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well, except there are (and have been) lots of great SUV's that are unibody. Range rover, xj cherokee, Grand cherokee, etc.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2013 at 11:57

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but they're not car based

HammerheadFistpunch > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 12:02

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As far as "car based" If you mean transverse engine with PTO and optional AWD then I can see your point, but the crossover is so far removed from their car equivalents that they are really not the cars they started as at all. The highlander or rav4 for example is so far different from the Camry that there are probably less than 10% shared components (not counting interior) between them. So is it really "car based"?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2013 at 12:07

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Yes, if you start with a car platform then, even if you modify the shit out of it, it's still based on a car platform at the end of the day.

HammerheadFistpunch > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 12:11

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so what about the reverse? where you start with a bespoke unibody suv and turn it into a car?

*yes, the panamera is based on the Cayenne platform.

So does that mean the low range, high adjustable SUV that was the old cayenne is now not an SUV, because its based on a car in a round about way?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2013 at 12:13

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I call it hideous. But I think crossover is still the correct term. It's crossing over segments and platforms.

HammerheadFistpunch > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 12:21

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so the(formerly*) off-road capable Cayenne with low range, height adjustable suspension, locking diffs and skid plates is a crossover because of platform sharing issues? bunk.

*The current panamera is still based on the old Cayenne architecture.

That's like saying that a kid could never be a singer because their parents were tone deaf.

I get what you are trying to say, but I think you are using too hard a line. I see this line as more of a music genre thing, where there is no line in the sand. This "because road car" argument is just too rigid to be accurate in all cases.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2013 at 12:30

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The Evoque is based on the LR-2 which was based on the Ford C-1 platform, the one used for the Focus. Therefore Evoque= Crossover.

HammerheadFistpunch > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 12:35

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you'll notice I already removed that provision when I did my own digging...It was a bad example anyway, but the rest stands.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2013 at 12:38

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I was talking about the Panamera as a crossover. The Cayanne is still an SUV.

HammerheadFistpunch > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 09/09/2013 at 12:39

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ah, I think you might stand alone there is calling the panamera a crossover.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 09/09/2013 at 12:40

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It's crossing over segments and platforms. ie "Crossover" in marketing speak.

Who needs sway bars anyway > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 14:19

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I would say:

1. RWD based drive line including low range select able transfer case or locking hubs.

2. Adequate approach, departure and crossover angles.

3. Capable of expanding and upgrading the Off- Road potential.

4. All terrain tire and wheel package.

cazzyodo > Who needs sway bars anyway 09/09/2013 at 14:20

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That's an extreme crossover you just described right there!

Who needs sway bars anyway > cazzyodo 09/09/2013 at 14:46

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The way I see it, Crossovers are station wagons that optionally have 4wd/awd , but people are to chicken shit to call them station wagons so manufactures jack them up an extra inch and call them crossovers. I grew up in a 86' Country squire wagon and we took that off road all the time, a lot more than most of these farts in CR-V's have, That didn't mean it was a SUV. As far as SUV's are concerned, if it doesn't have a Lift kit or aftermarket Off- road accessories available, then what good is it, and it is delegated to crossover duty.

The list of Proper SUV's gorws smaller by the day and as far as I can tell these are the only ones left American market:

Mercedes G-class
land rover defender
Nissan X-terra
Toyota FJ Cruiser
Toyota 4 Runner
Toyota sequoia
Toyota land cruiser
Chevy Tahoe
Chevy Suburban
Dodge Durango
Ford Expedition
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Jeep Wrangler
GMC Yukon

and of the above list only the highlighted would probably ever see any type of Off- Road use, never mind a proper set of all terrain tires or a lift kit. I am completely opinionated about this, so take what I say as the words of an disappointed enthusiast and not of a factician. When you think that 15-20 years ago that list would have been 4 times as long with twice as many manufactures whats a guy that want to play in the mud to do.

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > Who needs sway bars anyway 09/10/2013 at 10:54

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Of course the list grows a lot longer when you add in the pickup trucks. But they are trucks not SUVs. I completely agree with you lament about factory SUV options all bust disappearing from the market. I would probably bold the 4 runner and tahoe/yukon on your list, while expensive, they still have a large aftermarket given the underpinnings they share with their pickup truck brethren.

A solid axle swap on a tahoe looks like an appealing option in the future.

Given this list, its little wonder why the wrangler is selling so well these days. If only they expand the factory and build more variations.